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Author Topic:   Charlie Patton
W. Jebe
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posted 09-07-2000 00:39     Click Here to See the Profile for W. Jebe   Click Here to Email W. Jebe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'm looking for the lyrics to Charlie Pattons' songs.

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Dave
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posted 09-07-2000 02:26           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Geez, what's the problem? Can't you just pull em off the record?? When you're done with Charlie I have some Joseph Spence stuff for you to work on.

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Bob Brozman
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posted 09-07-2000 03:06     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Brozman   Click Here to Email Bob Brozman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Find someone who has the old Yazoo LP, the transcription is pretty good. There is also a book by steve Calt on Patton that may have lyrics, both of mine are on loan...
Yes, Patton often sacrificed clarity of lyrics on the altar of having cooler phrases of rhythm!

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W. Jebe
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posted 09-07-2000 11:54     Click Here to See the Profile for W. Jebe   Click Here to Email W. Jebe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks Bob, I appreciate your quick response and recommendations.

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Stu Alt
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posted 09-07-2000 15:31     Click Here to See the Profile for Stu Alt   Click Here to Email Stu Alt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
By the way, does anybody know the real lyrics from CP's "Moon's Goin' Down"?

One of the verses starts:

"Where were you when the Clarksdale ? burned down?"

It sounds like he's saying "new" and my wife always makes fun of me when I sing that.

Any suggestions?

PS I'm not getting a new wife

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Tim Mitchell
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posted 09-07-2000 16:09           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just got a nice new 12 string for my wife...best trade I ever made.

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Lovat Fraser
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posted 09-07-2000 18:45           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Stu,
from memory it is " Clarksdale mill ".

I know the problem , George used to sing " shellac " in " Pony Blues " , until I persuaded him it was "Shetland ", which is a small breed of Scottish horse. Mind you at 13.5 bars per verse , who needs words !

Again from memory , did somebody not ask Son House about the words to some of Papa Charlie's songs .The reply was that even those who played with him couldn't make out what the words were .

I also recently heard a opinion on " Sweet Home Chicago " as " the land that's calling for ya"


Good luck,we are off to play a Jz.+Bls.
Fest in the Borders.
Lovat.

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Mike Jolley
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posted 09-07-2000 18:52     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike Jolley   Click Here to Email Mike Jolley     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The Calt book says "Clarksdale mill".

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Stu Alt
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posted 09-07-2000 20:55     Click Here to See the Profile for Stu Alt   Click Here to Email Stu Alt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks to all.

My wife is still making fun of me, though.

I suppose misheard and misinterpreted blues lyrics could fill a lot of server space.

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Lcwx2
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posted 09-07-2000 23:35     Click Here to See the Profile for Lcwx2   Click Here to Email Lcwx2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi. You want to go to http://blueslyrics.tripod.com/artistswithsongs/charley_patton_1.htm#top

If that falls through, it's on a site called "Harry's Blues Lyrics Online". Everyone should have a look at it. Great resource! As a last ditch effort, or if you want all of Charlie's lyrics, and everyone else's, go to Document Records' web site. They're selling transcriptions of the lyrics of every album that they've released, in 9 volumes, for a relatively cheap price. Hope this helps. Good luck

Jon

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Alex Greenberg
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posted 09-07-2000 23:53     Click Here to See the Profile for Alex Greenberg   Click Here to Email Alex Greenberg     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just checked out the site Lcwx2 send in, whew, what great site...

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W. Jebe
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posted 09-08-2000 17:34     Click Here to See the Profile for W. Jebe   Click Here to Email W. Jebe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jon,

that web site kicks butt!

Thanks,
W. Jebe

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Lcwx2
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posted 09-09-2000 09:28     Click Here to See the Profile for Lcwx2   Click Here to Email Lcwx2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Great! I'm glad you guys enjoyed the site. Hope it helped.

Regards, Jon

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Randy Fortune
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posted 09-09-2000 14:35     Click Here to See the Profile for Randy Fortune   Click Here to Email Randy Fortune     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Great site Lcwx2, now if I could just lern to sing! Thanks Jon, I didn't read your name until I went back to the forum.

[This message has been edited by Randy Fortune (edited 09-09-2000).]

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Norm Reid
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posted 12-27-2002 00:54           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I have created the most accurate transcriptions of Charlie Patton songs ever. In 1997 Hal Leonard Co. would have published the songbook had I known how to deliver it "camera" ready. Lyrics, chords, lead runs, tunings and tableture. Not Fahhey, not Mann, not anyboby has what I've done. Every recorded Patton song known to exist. If you or anyone you know can help me get this published, I'm at goodnotesx@yahoo.com -NORM

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BluYanqui
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posted 12-27-2002 12:54     Click Here to See the Profile for BluYanqui   Click Here to Email BluYanqui     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Damn !!....all this time I thought the line referred to in "Moon Goin' Down" was "the Clarksdale-Newburn Line"....referring to a rail line that ran through the area....go figure.

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Lcwx2
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posted 12-27-2002 17:14     Click Here to See the Profile for Lcwx2   Click Here to Email Lcwx2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Norm Reid. I don't know of a specific company to publish your stuff, but I know that myselfand many others woud kill to get their hands on the material. Perhaps you can contact Stefan Grossman at his www.guitarvideos.com site and see if he'll offer to publish it or maybe even let you teach the material on a dvd/video lesson. I must see this material released somehow. If your stuff is what you say it is, you've got my vote for the next President elect. Is there any way I can see some of this material? My email is Lcwx2@aol.com Are you the friend of Adrian's who was working on this stuff earlier? Good luck and I hope to hear from you soon.

[This message has been edited by Lcwx2 (edited December 27, 2002).]

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hoodadoo
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posted 12-27-2002 18:10     Click Here to See the Profile for hoodadoo   Click Here to Email hoodadoo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Norm, you may want to contact someone like Dick Waterman, or as already mentioned, Stefan Grossman. Have you tried the instructional video companies like Homespun, or Yazoo/Shanache They have been putting out a lot of DVD/Video material. I'd like to see what you got, too! Maybe the people that did the Revenant Box Set can offer direction. I'm sure if you were to ask people like Woody Mann, Bob Brozman, or Ernie Hawkins, they would offer you their advice.
I'd love to see what you got. Where are you located? I can be reached at hoodadoo@aol.com.

[This message has been edited by hoodadoo (edited December 27, 2002).]

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Adrian Freed
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posted 12-27-2002 22:29     Click Here to See the Profile for Adrian Freed   Click Here to Email Adrian Freed     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Norm, this is good news indeed.

Potential publishers like to get an independent evaluation of the quality of the transcriptions. The three typos in your message remind me how helpful some good proofreading could be. I recommend you circulate a draft to a few of us Patton enthusiasts in exchange for proofing, feedback and endorsements that will help with a publishing deal.

Also, I would be suspicious of publishers that require camera ready materials from you. If they aren't even going to invest in the production aspects of the material how much are they going to spend on promotion? At the other extreme you have the publishers that take all the production and promotion costs (as they account for them) out of your royalties.

[This message has been edited by Adrian Freed (edited December 27, 2002).]

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John B
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posted 12-27-2002 23:26     Click Here to See the Profile for John B   Click Here to Email John B     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I hope Mr. Reid is on the up-and-up. The story of the fabulous treasure that can be yours if only you could help out a little is a fairly common one. I know he hasn't asked for bank account numbers like the Nigerian scams, and I don't mean to sound too skeptical. It seems very strange the Hal Leonard would be so difficult to deal with. I suspect there's more to the story (which granted doesn't need to be shared with us).

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Elm stakersfeild
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posted 03-10-2004 06:45           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Damn , some of you really sound like a bunch of tools trying so hard to get the lyrics off stuff thats almost a century old ..... to quote one tool WHATS THE PROBLEM WHY CANT YOU JUST PULL EM OFF THE RECORD ... what a lambskull. Hey mullettheads maybe the beauty in it meaning the songs you tools is that you aint supposed to know all the words...pure genius.. why dont you make up some of your own stuff and stop the copycat action, why do you care so much what someone else said on a record so long ago , ITS what THEY SAID not you .. JUST STOP ALL THAT BULL AND PLAY SOME DOWN DEEP AND REAL HOME STYLE BLUES AND MAYBE IN 100 YEARS YOULL BE AS POPULAR AS CHARLIE PATTON WAS AND STILL IS MAYBE THE KIDS THEN WILL BE LISTENING TO YOUR SONGS probally not , cuz if that was true i would be hearing them right now. keep good music alive be original dont be a wannabe charlie patton robert johnson sn house robert wilkins be yourself write your own stuff

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BluYanqui
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posted 03-10-2004 07:00     Click Here to See the Profile for BluYanqui   Click Here to Email BluYanqui     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Would it be a moot point to mention "maintaining a tradition", or "delving into the past to understand the future"???? Questioning the point of analyzing a style of music is perfectly understandable,but a bit of respect added to the inquiry would certainly help promote a decent discussion. Otherwise people might look at one's words and just write you off as a "tool"....*snicker*...B. Ryan

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Michael Segui
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posted 03-10-2004 08:11     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael Segui   Click Here to Email Michael Segui     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Elm stakersfeild,
How come I've never heard of YOU!?!
Michael Segui
Est. 1974

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cmdrpiffle
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posted 03-10-2004 09:19     Click Here to See the Profile for cmdrpiffle   Click Here to Email cmdrpiffle     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Elm,

I understand some of what you are saying. On one hand, I sometimes get
frustrated at the extreme attempts I see folks going to to 'copy' a
piece of music. I hear people go nuts trying to 'find the tab' where's
the almighty 'tab'. I see and hear people discuss to a fault trying to
copy x-actly how Ledward Kaapana or Robert Johnson played something.

Sometimes folks will never evolve as musicians simply because they aren't
yet willing to stretch their own boundries. They devote their time trying
to copy somebody else. You often see that in newer musicians. It is a
sign of accomplishment if what you're playing sounds like something you've
heard. Sometimes these folks gain the experience and confidence to progress
more in their music. Sometimes they don't . To each his own. I know a
wonderful lady who has practiced the guitar for well, years. She has the
best equipment and real devotion. She spends all her time trying to play
note for note a couple of songs. But she is happy. More power to folks like
her.

Now, the otherside of the coin is what you are really seeing on this site.
You must understand, some of the most widely discussed types of music on
THIS site were almost lost forever. Had there not been a kind of revival
of blues in the 60's, there may never have been a reason to re-release
an old master cutting of someone who died 60 years ago. If there had been
no interest, there would be no albums. Old masters would have degraded, people
forget, records are lost. After a while, IT whatever it was, a style of music,
a tradition, a musician, they cease to exist. Akin to your aged grandfather saying
something like, "I knew this blues player in the 20's ...best damn guitarist and
singer I've ever heard. Wonder what happened to that guy?"

People here will discuss what thickness of string Leadbelly used on his G string, they
will discuss what fingerings Skip James used on a certain song. They will talk about
the brand of glass for a slide used by someone...

It is a true form of preservation of an art. Nothing more. Ain't none of us ever gonna
sound like Robert Johnson. Even if we can do Robert Johnson note for note. We're not
trying to. For every seemingly 'trivial' detail folks like us discuss, it helps to build
a much broader knowledgebase of the style and art. What we do know today is directly
brought about by folks who took an interest.

Elm, I believe what you'd find about folks who contribute to this site are that they
are among the finest guitarists and musicians who've ever picked up the instrument.

That they choose to keep an artform or tradition alive by producing it as closely as
possible to the original (ie copying), is the truest form of respect to the people
who wrote those songs.

If you think they can't blow away mere mortals with their own guitar work...
then brother, you need to see IGS.

Any, good to see a new face here at the forum,

Cmdr (korporate tool) Piffle

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Adrian Freed
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posted 03-10-2004 11:47     Click Here to See the Profile for Adrian Freed   Click Here to Email Adrian Freed     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"You must understand, some of the most widely discussed types of music on
THIS site were almost lost forever. "

There is still lots of music around the world heading down the "lost forever" path. Interestingly sometimes it
is guitar and guitar music that is hastening this demise.

Indian Classical musicians have found a way to transmit music through many generations
that includes plenty of room for individual expression, new instruments and ideas and without written notation.

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Stu Alt
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posted 03-10-2004 11:52     Click Here to See the Profile for Stu Alt   Click Here to Email Stu Alt     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I copy stuff because I'm (mix and match)

a) too lazy to write my own
b) not inspired to write my own
c) Not talented enough to write my own
d) Don't think I could be as effective at conveying what somebody else has already done, so why reinvent the wheel?.
e) I like it the way that guy did it first and think it would be cool to sort of sound like that.

Maybe I will try and do my own stuff someday. Until then, I think it's OK to try and figure out what the original lyrics are. I still feel free to modify the words and lyrics to my own nefarious designs. After all playing music is fun!

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bcw
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posted 03-10-2004 13:37           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
well, i can`t copy a thing , i just play a shuffle or a boom chang and improvise riffs.

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eskimo
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posted 03-10-2004 14:50     Click Here to See the Profile for eskimo   Click Here to Email eskimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Elm - when someone said "Why can't you just pull them off the record?" they were being facetious. Charley Patton, in a lot of cases, is notoriously hard to understand.
I love it when part of the reason why someone just goes off is because they don't understand what the hell the other person was saying. Sarcasm is sometimes lost on those w/ no sense of humor.

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DJ71
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posted 03-10-2004 15:25     Click Here to See the Profile for DJ71   Click Here to Email DJ71     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I thinks its also worth pointing out that most of the best musicians in the world are not composers. The fact that people take the time to study a style just demonstrates their respect for it - be it blues or classical or whatever.

Dan Johnson

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Adrian Freed
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posted 03-11-2004 11:17     Click Here to See the Profile for Adrian Freed   Click Here to Email Adrian Freed     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The specialization of tasks that resuts in the job titles "composer" and "musician" is a very recent one in the history of music making and has a lot more to do with how intellectual property is managed than inherent limitations you might have. Most traditional music contexts value musicians who create words/themes/arrangement on the fly. One of the things that makes many of those old blues 78's so exciting to listen to is that they we being assembled on-the-fly in the recording studio with the performer struggling to fit an arrangement in a shorter than usual time frame of the 78rpm and to satisfy a vague description of what to play to create a hit, e.g. "something about guns like such a such a previous hit".

Our current ideas of what a musician does are very recent: for example lets look at Glen Miller and Robert Johnson. Glen Miller was the first musician to obsessively rehearse his orchestra to play arrangements live that exactly much the recordings his audiences came to know through records and radio. Even classical music has never been this concerned with matching performances to a reference - composers commonly changed parts right before each performance. In the blues area Robert Johnson was one of the first musicians to emulate the playing style and actual arrangements of his predecessors because he had access to repeated listening of records. Up to that point people copied each others songs to some extent but there is considerable personality in each copy.

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John Bushouse
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posted 03-11-2004 11:35     Click Here to See the Profile for John Bushouse   Click Here to Email John Bushouse     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
An interesting experiment - maybe for IGS, or a similar "group" setting, would be to play a recording (preferably a very good one) of a piece, maybe repeat it over a period of 20 to 30 minutes. recording. People could have a pencil and paper, but no guitar in front of them. They would be given the tuning and the key that the recording is in.

Then people would have a day to work on their version, essentially from memory. People could then compare and contrast their versions of the song. My guess is a lot of the "individual" personality of the performer would come through.

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DJ71
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posted 03-12-2004 00:53     Click Here to See the Profile for DJ71   Click Here to Email DJ71     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
It seems to me that the distiction actually goes back to the beginning of printed music when it became so much easier to play someone else's music. Orchestras have been rehersing and performing things exactly for several hundred years at least.

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Bendy
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posted 03-12-2005 15:45     Click Here to See the Profile for Bendy   Click Here to Email Bendy     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry if this is terribley out of sequence, but I'm new to this forum. First, I love that you're all into Patton...his sound has tickled my ears since I first picked up a guitar and started noodling around 25 years ago. But, many paths and tunes later, I've never gotten around to learning much of his music. Someone mentioned "Shake It & Break It"...does anyone know if Charlie was playing this in standard, or open tuning? If open, probably spanish??? Any ideas?

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bighollowtwang
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posted 03-12-2005 16:16     Click Here to See the Profile for bighollowtwang   Click Here to Email bighollowtwang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Standard tuning, key of F, no capo.

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bighollowtwang
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posted 03-12-2005 16:18     Click Here to See the Profile for bighollowtwang   Click Here to Email bighollowtwang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This might be out of context, but Charley spelled his name C-h-a-r-l-e-y and that's also the way it is spelled on his tombstone.

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Scott Jacobs
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posted 03-12-2005 17:55     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Jacobs   Click Here to Email Scott Jacobs     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Patton's name has appeared with both spellings in multiple blues publications by multiple blues historians and authors. In addition, I believe that his name was spelled "Charlie" on many of the original 78 recordings. Bukka White was born Booker T. Washington White but I wouldn't have tried to correct him on how he spelled it.

Unfortunately (and ironically), I'm willing to bet that this thread has been in existence since before that tombstone was erected.

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crossrdblue
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posted 03-12-2005 17:56     Click Here to See the Profile for crossrdblue   Click Here to Email crossrdblue     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This thread has been in existence since before Kyle Haynes was born. or is it Kile, or Kyel.

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bighollowtwang
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posted 03-12-2005 18:01     Click Here to See the Profile for bighollowtwang   Click Here to Email bighollowtwang     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've read previously that Bukka White disliked the "Bukka" spelling but stuck to it because that's what his earliest records were labeled.

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Scott Jacobs
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posted 03-12-2005 18:21     Click Here to See the Profile for Scott Jacobs   Click Here to Email Scott Jacobs     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bighollowtwang:
I've read previously that Bukka White disliked the "Bukka" spelling but stuck to it because that's what his earliest records were labeled.

Actually, I read that the initial spelling was the result of him being asked how he spelled his own name. But really, what difference does it make to anyone besides those who want to correct others? I'm certainly thankful that more information is finally coming to light in the recent years.

The folks who were in charge of producing 78's weren't particularly known for always getting it right. Consider that Rube Lacy's original recording was labeled "Ham Hound Crave" despite the fact that its later been disputed that he was saying "Ham Hound and Gravy." Certainly there are countless examples of this kind of thing.

Brad, if you're not carefull Kyle might kick your ass himself! Have you seen him lately?

[This message has been edited by Scott Jacobs (edited 03-13-2005).]

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eskimo
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posted 03-12-2005 18:28     Click Here to See the Profile for eskimo   Click Here to Email eskimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I love this thread and I look forward to seeing it a year from now (check out DJ71's post date and then Bendy's...spooky)

Must be Charlee's Pat'uns ghost...

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