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Author Topic:   right hand dilemma
Tom Austin
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Posts: 3404
From: Occidental, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 01-08-2002 11:33     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom Austin   Click Here to Email Tom Austin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Well, then. I was just playing my new reso the other day. This guitar is FINE! I've always been torn between the worlds of the electric and the resonator. My fear was that a reso would somehow be like a hybrid bike: a combination of a bad road bike and a bad mountain mike.

Not. It is sweet, and goes with a little pignose so well I don't even want to plug it into the Boogie.

But I digress. I was at the music store stocking up, and I got some picks for the reso case. Lately I've been playing acoustics with all fingers a la Woody Mann, and electrics with traditional flatpick. But the reso is different, so I got a cool thumbpick (the "pick" part has the shape and thickness of a heavy flatpick, about half as thick as the usual plastic thumbpick) and some dunlop-ish plastic fingerpicks. I resolved to take Bob's advice and try them for two weeks.

Well, it didn't take two weeks. I just bent the fingerpicks to shape with bare hands (I'm wondering why the complicated hot-water ritual - I guess you get finer control over shape with the hot water, but just bending it by hand seemed to work for me) and started playing.

I still need much time to get control of the technique, but I can see the speed and volume advantages for certain kinds of picking right away.

So here's the dilemma: If I go full-time with the plastic fingerpicks, will I lose the calluses and the bare-finger dexterity? And what about the Martin Simpsonish stuff with the frailing?


On a more general note, is it possible to have your fingers, so to speak, in too many musical pies? I've taken classes with Bob and Woody and Martin and John and Orville and I'm into country blues and city blues and rock and jazz and African music and calypso and ska and reggae. Yet I haven't mastered any of it. Do I need to focus on one thing?

Has anyone else struggled with this question?

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Dennis Roger Reed
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From: San Clemente, CA USA
Registered: Sep 2000
posted 01-08-2002 11:46     Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis Roger Reed   Click Here to Email Dennis Roger Reed     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
yes.

I am a mandolin playing guitarist that had most of my "professional success" as a bass player. All of these instruments required different styles of right hand: fingers only for bass, pick only for mando and fingerpicks and flatpicks for guitar.

I stopped fingerstyle guitar 20 some years ago to just try to use the flatpick, and I stopped using open tunings around the same time. I regret both decisions.

I took up mandolin fairly late in the game, and bass even later. I am marginally proficient on both instruments, but probably have made much more money with these instruments than the guitar. Of course, I'm talking tens and tens of dollars here.

Playing different styles of music keeps me from becoming stale, I think. Your variety of styles is greater than mine: bluegrass; blues; folk; rock and country all have a common denominator, I think.

My guess is that if you're feeling scattered, you probably are. If you feel like you have enough time to do it all, or at least to make progress in each area, then continue to run down those varieties of paths.

Glad you're enjoying the guitar. Nice to have left it in good hands.

[This message has been edited in memory of Frederich Noad(edited January 08, 2002).]

[This message has been edited by Dennis Roger Reed (edited January 08, 2002).]

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mikeln
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From: Poway, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 01-08-2002 12:03     Click Here to See the Profile for mikeln   Click Here to Email mikeln     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, always struggling

Upright Bass, electric Bass, lap steel, non-pedal steel, fingerpicking national (w/picks), fingerpicking wood (no picks), Charango (usually no picks), Ukelele (no picks), electric guitar (flatpick + fingers)...

Never enough time! (esp. since marriage/kids)

Diversification keep me fresh, but it also guarantees I'm not getting better very fast.

I usually try to get into a band playing the style/instrument that I really want to learn. Then progress is exponential, and I find that later, after I stop playing with them, I retain the knowledge (muscle memory). Then it just becomes periodic "maintenance" playing.

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Tom Austin
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From: Occidental, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 01-08-2002 12:22     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom Austin   Click Here to Email Tom Austin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks, Dennis. The guitar fits my style very well, I think.

I forgot to add in the variety of instruments I play: from the little charango (and ronroco, if I ever get my hands on one) to a Style O to the resolectric to a wood-body baritone to acoustic and electric basses to reg'lar acoustics to various conventional electrics.

I think I've made about $37 lifetime playing music. That may change in the future, but right now money is not the issue.

Not directly, anyway; I don't feel like I have enough time to devote to the various modes of musical expression I enjoy. It makes me want to quit my job and do music full time.

I'd be interested to hear from some of the amateurs and the professionals who read here on what their experience has been.

Generally I don't regret my somewhat ADD-ish approach to music. I miss out on mastery somewhat, but certain kinds of "mastery" are mythical anyway. The kind of mastery I'm learning to strive for has more to do with full presence of mind and "in the moment-ness" than it does mastery of a particular technique or style.

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Tom Austin
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From: Occidental, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 01-08-2002 12:33     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom Austin   Click Here to Email Tom Austin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mikel slipped in.

yeah, progress is exponential. I played electric bass in a cover band for two years. I felt like I could do anything on bass within those limits (none of that funky stuff, please; we're white bread). Now I pick up the bass and feel generally clumsy. Though it does come back after an hour or so.


I do feel my slide playing has suffered.

When I first came to IGS, I considered slide one of my strong suits. A mixture of confidence crisis (hearing people who can really make it sing), plus having all those other avenues shown to me means I don't play slide as much as I used to. My slide playing is better than it was two years ago, but not that much better compared to progress I've made in other areas.

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mike880
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posted 01-08-2002 12:57           Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
After IGS San Rafael I pretty much was taken over by Irish Traditional Music. In ITrad the tune is the thing. I found that I had very vertical thinking in the past, lots of notes on each beat vs. just the melody which appeared very horizontal to me. It was a real eye opener. Also when you are learning just the melody you can memorize a lot of tunes quickly. Now I realize why people play flutes & whistles. Anyway, I encourage you to keep trying different things and I'm sure you will figure out how to handle the right hand stuff as you go through it.

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Dennis Roger Reed
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From: San Clemente, CA USA
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posted 01-08-2002 14:22     Click Here to See the Profile for Dennis Roger Reed   Click Here to Email Dennis Roger Reed     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I’ve already waxed on this but here’s my personal solution.

Different kinds of music: Gotta. No choice.

Different instruments: One gets precedence. That’s guitar. I’m best with a flatpick, so 80% of my time goes to that, but practice time is flip-flopped… 80% to fingerstyle and slide. Mandolin is fun, but I’m only using it on occasion. Rarely practice, play for fun mostly, add it to a few gigs and recordings. Not many calls for bass gigs, last one was September. Never practice, mostly record.

Of course, there still isn’t enough time and I not progressing like I’d like to. Oh well.

It’s all too much fun, and as long as it stays that way, I am a very happy, satisfied guy.

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Tom Austin
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From: Occidental, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 01-08-2002 14:27     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom Austin   Click Here to Email Tom Austin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I played clarinet as a kid. Was always frustrated by inability to play other than single notes. That means most of the time, you need other musicians.

Mostly I just posted to break up all the sixes in the "replies" column. Call me superstitious.

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Jeffrey Sipress
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From: Santa Barbara, CA
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 01-08-2002 14:45     Click Here to See the Profile for Jeffrey Sipress   Click Here to Email Jeffrey Sipress     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
So many aspects of playing music always lead to so many more. Huh? What I mean is that more desires create more challenges and technicalities to deal with. This thread is sort of about picks. I always used a plectrum (the standard alien head shaped tortoiseoid item, with 'Fender' usually stamped on it), with minor exceptions until only a few years ago. Then I began using bare fingers and sometimes a thumbpick, sometimes no thumbpick. Then I got over the hump and learned to use metal fingerpicks, with and without a thumbpick. Then bare fingers became slightly wierd. So I switched between picks and bare every day for some time to be able to do either on command. Then when I got back to playing electric blues and rock this past year, I looked down and noticed that I was bare-picking my electric stuff! Wow, that was automatic and fun. But I go back to the plectrum for that often for real speed and comfort.

One phenomenom from IGS and all my other musical input sources (two different guitar instructors now, videos, books, etc) is that I enjoy, and want to learn so much stuff that I'll never get very good at any of it in my lifetime. I also need to have a life, maintain my marriage, run a business, constantly work on my house, and engage in a few other compelling hobbies and interests. I'm not too bad at some of my musical efforts, and I've resigned myself to just being a hack at a lot of it, and a happy one at that. Now I'm more comfortable. Pease don't interpret this to mean I'm lazy or not good at much. Frankly, I think I'm somewhat accomplished at quite a few of the interests I persue. (Now is a good time to start throwing tomatoes and other rotting organic matter at your monitor screen).

Ok, I have just officially recognized another condition that I KNOW a lot of us suffer from, but have never regarded as a true ailment:

IMAS

Instructional Material Acquisition Syndrome.

It is an offshoot of GAS, the contraction of, and symptoms of which we know all to well around here. I have dozens(maybe hundreds) of videos, books, CD's, mountains of downloaded and otherwise bagged TAB sheets, along with gigabytes of harddisk space devoted to digital documents and mp3's and wav files of instructional stuff. And how about thousands of dollars worth (or stacks of shelves and piles of boxes) of electronic doodads and guitar accessories).

Let's get some help with this. We need to meet and speak out loud. I'll bring all 247 of my thumbpicks.

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Tom Austin
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From: Occidental, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 01-08-2002 14:56     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom Austin   Click Here to Email Tom Austin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
>>
Then when I got back to playing electric blues and rock this past year, I looked down and noticed that I was bare-picking my electric stuff!
>>

I've had the same experience. It's still a goal for me to have the control on fingerpicking an electric that I do on acoustic. It's not as easy as it looks. Electric guitars are so damn efficient at producing sound that it's way easy to produce too much of the undesirable kinds of sounds. Hoo, boy.


>I'm not too bad at some of my musical >efforts

you understate considerably, sir.

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drDAve
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Posts: 739
From: Lake Oswego
Registered: Sep 2000
posted 01-08-2002 15:18     Click Here to See the Profile for drDAve   Click Here to Email drDAve     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
IMAS eh. Yeah, got a case of that. GAS, well I have a mild case of that too (the dobro I got from Sipress is just one GAS bubble that needs more attention than it's getting). Fingers in too many musical pies, oh yeah. Pretty hard to avoid if your'e exposed to all the great stuff that is out there. I kind of side with Dennis in that you have to pick one thing and try and make it your strength, and then add in the others as there is time. For me, thats fingerstyle accoustic guitar. The others-my National for slide, my old epiphone arch-top for swing, the dobro, and slowly fading into the distance a couple of electric guitars, are all there for me to pick up, be pretty bad at, and enjoy all the same. I'm definately one of those 'reach exceeds your grasp' types.

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hoodadoo
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From: Westport, Ct.,
Registered: Mar 2001
posted 01-08-2002 18:27     Click Here to See the Profile for hoodadoo   Click Here to Email hoodadoo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
This is a good topic for me. I don't know where to start, but right here looks like a good spot. I started out on guitar in the end of grade school. Played an acoustic, metal string. Took formal lessons for 2 years, can read music, writing it out is another story. At that time I seemed to gravitate to playing chords. I enjoyed the melodics, and rhythms. Always played with a flat pick, or strummed with my fingers. Ninth grade, along came a Hagstrom electric, and Fender Champ Amp. Still played chords, never really considered lead guitar. For years that was my M.O., until I was turned on to Bass guitar. I ended up buying a Rickenbacker stereo bass. I didn't like it, to thin a neck, and the fret spacing didn't feel right to me. I picked up a Fender Percision, and it was marriage. My reasoning for playing bass was that I felt for area bands there were a zillion guitarists, and drummers. Try finding a good bass player, or keyboard player. So I found my niche playing bass in cover bands, even did the origional material rock band, we were called "the Zero Boys". My 10 seconds of fame with that band was to open for David Johanson "Hot Hot Hot". After a couple other musical ventures that didn't work, I decided to try to put together a band. Met a female vocalist that to this day I still feel has the best voice I've ever come across. We did a 5 year stint together. We were called "the Hoodoo Blues Band". So now you know where "hoodadoo" comes from. Anyway, along the way, and over the years I've been aquiring a number of instruments. I can relate to Dennis, and mikeln. From electric bass I went to stand up, play both, but really have been focusing on stand up. Have been doing an acoustic blues duo. I do have an Underwood pickup on it, and run it through an old 67 Ampeg B-15 flip top amp. Past couple years I've purchased 2 old Nationals, a Duolian, and a Triolian. Also picked up a new Resophonic Delphi, and Tricone. Been bare finger picking on those, can't sem to make the adjusment to finger picks, but would like too. Now the fun begins, don't ask me why, but I now have 2 lap steel guitars, and I am GREEN with a slide. I'm learning a bit from just fooling with it, and some imput from a lap guitarist I know. To further my AGS disease there are 2 banjos on their way. One is a 5 string., an old Kay. The other is a turn of the century Weymann 4 string (tenor). I love banjo sound, and the picking, so I figured why not! Now, to put all of this in perspective, I also feel you have to go with the instrument you play best. For me this would be the bass, then the guitar. Lap steel and banjo is new waters for me. It's just that I love these instruments, and the sounds they produce. And sometimes, when the flow is happening, there is nothing in the world like it. It will be intresting to see how I progress, and I am seriously considering trying to attend this years New York I.G.S. I can only learn from the experience. Sorry, for the long rambling on, and I hope this relates to the topic. I had to get it out! I forgot to throw in the old Sivertone acoustic 12 string, thanks to Leadbelly.

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Adrian Freed
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From: Berkeley, CA, USA
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posted 01-08-2002 22:28     Click Here to See the Profile for Adrian Freed   Click Here to Email Adrian Freed     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
We could have fun adapting a game I have played with people with too many CD's:

Everybody brings two tab/instruction books from their vast collections to the IGS. We put them in a huge pile. We could burn them I suppose, but the game is everybody takes at least one home by RANDOM choice from the pile. I figure if we all bring two there will be plenty for the people not yet afflected by Instructional Material Acquisition Syndrome.

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Leo Stepanek
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Posts: 700
From: Innsbruck, Austria
Registered: Apr 2000
posted 01-08-2002 23:37     Click Here to See the Profile for Leo Stepanek   Click Here to Email Leo Stepanek     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Very similar experiences. I always try to find bands where I can do what I do best and slip in things I'm working on. Once you're in a band, you can improve (if you want) or just maintain your chops (you'll improve anyway), which gives you time to play your other bands at home. When I was an aspiring lead mando player, I found a band that needed a rhythm mando player, and I had the opportunity to play one or two leads also. mikeln's way also works good for me: I joined a dixieland jazz band on tenor banjo although I only knew about 5 or six chords. It was much more fun and much easier to learn a few new chords being in a band.
There's still not enough time to play at home (never say practice) as much as I'd want to. Without knowing why, my focus tends to shift from instrument to instrument every three months or so. Nowadays, I play guitar and tenor guitar mostly at home, a little bit of lap guitar, but no mandolin nor any other of my toys (you don't want to read the full inventory of my music room). I'm sure the focus will shift again, but I wouldn't want to force any shifts. And I don't expect to make progresses in every field of my interests at the same time.

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mikeln
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From: Poway, CA, USA
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posted 01-09-2002 08:18     Click Here to See the Profile for mikeln   Click Here to Email mikeln     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I'll extend this topic again.

For me, there are several musical goals:

1) Learng to accurately play different types of music. i.e. Salsa, Bluegrass, Blues, Jazz, etc

2) Learn to use different instruments within those styles.

#1 is usually a higher priority, and it dictates the playing technique in #2.

Then you add:

3) Create new styles utilizing different combinations of instruments and playing styles.

This is what IGS has opened up for me. I think Prof Brozman is an excellent example of this, and his Charango experiment shows this.

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Randy Fortune
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Posts: 217
From: Fresno, California, U.S.A.
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 01-10-2002 09:03     Click Here to See the Profile for Randy Fortune   Click Here to Email Randy Fortune     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I agree with you guys about diversity because I believe all music somehow is interconnected.
"The broader the base, The higher the peak" is an analogy I've always thought made good sense. I'm playing bass in church right now but have played guitar, piano and organ for Sunday services and some other instruments for special projects (mandolin, sax, banjo, accordian, concertina, harmonica....) but still like playing electric guitar in clubs the most.
I just gotta ROCK!

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baluzbaby
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Registered: May 2001
posted 01-10-2002 10:40     Click Here to See the Profile for baluzbaby   Click Here to Email baluzbaby     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just finished a book "Effortless Mastery" by Kenny Werner. Nutshell...don't move on 'til you can feel the music in your marrow.

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Tom Austin
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From: Occidental, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 01-10-2002 13:11     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom Austin   Click Here to Email Tom Austin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I just hopped over to Amazon. The Effortless Mastery book is now in my shopping cart.

Before I pull the trigger: baluzbaby, would you recommend the book? Is it as good as the reviewers on Amazon seem to think it is?

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baluzbaby
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posted 01-11-2002 09:48     Click Here to See the Profile for baluzbaby   Click Here to Email baluzbaby     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Tom....I did enjoy the book. There were lots of little gems thoughout. I will read it again with a high-lighter in hand next time. At first I was thinking "where is this guy coming from?" It seemed a bit wishy-washy, new age kinda thing. Then everything pulled together and I could see great value in his concepts. Sometimes it only takes one sentance in a book to make it worth while and to open one up to new ideas. So, to me it was worth the money.

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Tom Austin
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From: Occidental, CA, USA
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 01-11-2002 13:51     Click Here to See the Profile for Tom Austin   Click Here to Email Tom Austin     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
thanks.

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