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Author Topic:   Frosted Duco Attempt?
Reson8r
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Posts: 341
From: Olinda, Maui
Registered: Aug 2004
posted 08-19-2004 18:32     Click Here to See the Profile for Reson8r   Click Here to Email Reson8r     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi,
I'm new on here and would first like to say hello to everyone. It's great that there are so many people interested in great music and wonderful guitars. Keep the faith!
My initial inquiry is this:
I'm wondering if, like me, there is anyone out there who would like to see National Resophonic reissue a Duolian-style guitar with a faithful reproduction of a Frosted Duco finish?
If they did, I would buy one in a minute!For me, the new baked-appliance finish they use on their steel bodied instruments just doesn't cut it for me.
I understand that it is probably illegal in California to use that paint formula, but surely they could get a close approximation?
I own three Nationals with that finish and they are all gloriously different in color and texture:
1. 1932 Duolian - two-tone green
2. 1932 Duolian -Grey with major frost and crinkle pattern
3. 1933 Triolian B- green with minor frost.

I also own a 1994 Style O, a 2003 Delphi Vintage Steel, a 1933 Style O, a 1999 Resolectric Jr., a 1930 Style 2 Tricone and a early 90's Continental Style 3.

I love all of them and play them all regularly.

I have searched high and low on the web, checked threads here,asked several luthiers and older industrial paint manufacturers and no one claims to know or is sayin' nuthin'!
Surely there is someone out there who knows the formula and how to shoot this finish?

I am a believer in leaving original finishes alone, no matter how battered they are, but I can't help but think how cool it would be to have a new model with that finish.

Any answers would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks and Kind Regards,

Reson8r

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resin8er
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Posts: 1051
From: Fair Lawn, NJ, U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2002
posted 08-19-2004 18:40     Click Here to See the Profile for resin8er   Click Here to Email resin8er     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I won't be answering your question, but your screen name is curiously very similar to mine. What's up with that?

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Reson8r
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Posts: 341
From: Olinda, Maui
Registered: Aug 2004
posted 08-19-2004 18:45     Click Here to See the Profile for Reson8r   Click Here to Email Reson8r     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Sorry,
Didn't know there was a similar one. For the record, I have had the same thing on my liscene plate for 9 years.
Best Regards,
Reson8r

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resin8er
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Posts: 1051
From: Fair Lawn, NJ, U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2002
posted 08-19-2004 18:49     Click Here to See the Profile for resin8er   Click Here to Email resin8er     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah, I think I made that license plate.

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Reson8r
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Posts: 341
From: Olinda, Maui
Registered: Aug 2004
posted 08-19-2004 18:53     Click Here to See the Profile for Reson8r   Click Here to Email Reson8r     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nice one!

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Mike D
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Posts: 1393
From: Phx, Az
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 08-20-2004 07:16     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike D   Click Here to Email Mike D     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Reson8r, the 'secret' of Frosted Duco seems to have been uncovered a while back and it's.....mothballs. Or specifically napthalene crystals dissolved in nitrocellulouse lacquer.
I've seen pictures of the results and have bought some napthalene flakes but have not gotten around to trying it out.

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Paul Norman
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Posts: 1601
From: Cambridge, MA, USA
Registered: Aug 2003
posted 08-20-2004 07:40     Click Here to See the Profile for Paul Norman   Click Here to Email Paul Norman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Mothballs and nitro - don't try this at home. It sounds like an explosive mixture to me.

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cymo
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Posts: 66
From: Boston, MA
Registered: Aug 2004
posted 08-20-2004 09:55     Click Here to See the Profile for cymo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Check out this refinished duolian for sale from Rothmans on gbase:
www.gbase.com/gearlist/guitar_picture.asp?guitar=510769

Doesn't look exactly right, but pretty close, no?

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Rhino
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Posts: 536
From: Southern Cal, USA
Registered: May 2004
posted 08-20-2004 09:55     Click Here to See the Profile for Rhino   Click Here to Email Rhino     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A buddy of mine has been able to duplicate the finish. I have pics of the finished product, and it looks awesome. Problem is the environmental issues. In fact, the recipe was once in a popular science(?) magazine back sometime in the 30's. It surely can be done, but would not meet environmental standards. National Reso could not legally duplicate this finish, which is why they use essentially auto finishes on their guitars. Gotta looooove the Duco!

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Steven Marks
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Posts: 365
From: Greenwich Village, NY
Registered: Jun 2003
posted 08-20-2004 10:10     Click Here to See the Profile for Steven Marks   Click Here to Email Steven Marks     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Somewhere, deep in the hills, a secret National refinishing lab flaunts environmental standards to recreate classic finishes. It's location only hinted at and fiercely protected...

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Reson8r
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Posts: 341
From: Olinda, Maui
Registered: Aug 2004
posted 08-21-2004 19:47     Click Here to See the Profile for Reson8r   Click Here to Email Reson8r     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow! Thanks for the info.Who'dda thunk it?Looks like the wheels(and the sweaters in grandma's attic) are turning...
Best Wishes,
Reson8r

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Michael Segui
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Posts: 451
From: Woodstock, ONT, Canada
Registered: Apr 2003
posted 09-21-2004 17:23     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael Segui   Click Here to Email Michael Segui     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
I've seen pictures of the results and have bought some napthalene flakes but have not gotten around to trying it out.

Where did you get them? It may be cool to buy a painted Johsnon or Regal to strip and experiment on. I have lots of NC at work (I'm in the ink biz).

Hmmmmmmmmm.....

Michael Segui
Est. 1974
"The electric guitar is a fraud." - Mance Lipscomb

[This message has been edited by Michael Segui (edited September 21, 2004).]

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Mike D
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Posts: 1393
From: Phx, Az
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 09-21-2004 18:31     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike D   Click Here to Email Mike D     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
You can buy the Napthalene flakes on eBay.
www.ebaystores.com/chemsaversinc

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bdeivert
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Posts: 187
From: Karlstad, Sweden
Registered: Aug 2004
posted 09-22-2004 01:59     Click Here to See the Profile for bdeivert   Click Here to Email bdeivert     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Len,

please post some pics of the finished results of the DUCO finish??? I am sure everyone is interested!

cheers
BERT (longing for my new Style O)

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Bob Brozman
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Posts: 2590
From: Brozmanistan, Earth
Registered: Nov 1999
posted 09-22-2004 09:07     Click Here to See the Profile for Bob Brozman   Click Here to Email Bob Brozman     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Some years ago a National collector who was also a chemist, sent me a 1/2" thick stack of patent papers for these finishes. All of them fall between 1929-34, so typical of Dopyera to use the latest cutting-edge materials!

Altering the various components changes the amount of crystallizing and also the "depth" of same. Must be done in a still room. Also The crystal "flowers" are started by lightly touching the wet paint with the tip of a nail in different places.

Too bad these finishes are illegal in Calif, but how about in Houston Texas? It' "Anything goes" there, pollution-wise!

While we are on the subject, have you ever noticed that rolled f-hole triolians of a certain period have visible wrinkling in the metal near the bass side f-hole? Something inconsistent wth the die.

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Mike D
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Posts: 1393
From: Phx, Az
Registered: Dec 2000
posted 09-22-2004 10:02     Click Here to See the Profile for Mike D   Click Here to Email Mike D     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Nitro can be sprayed in California, you just need the right EPA-Ok'd booth and re-claim set up similar to what Fender uses. Bigger bucks I'm sure than what National R-P and most other builders can swing.
Maricopa county where I live has essentially the same air quality laws that Cali. has so I can't buy nitro here, but I can in other parts of AZ, as well as most of the country, not just Texas.

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snakehips
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Posts: 1042
From: Edinburgh, Scotland, U.K.
Registered: Feb 2003
posted 09-22-2004 10:18     Click Here to See the Profile for snakehips   Click Here to Email snakehips     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi there !

Kay did a guitar (in the 30's) with the frosted Duco finish on it too, I believe.
I nearly bid on one about two years ago but had to keep the money for the tax man instead (after anxious calculator calculations left me depressed) !!!!

I wonder about regulations in the UK. Perhaps we (Royal we) could do the Duco finish ?

This sounds so exciting !

Maybe a modern, tougher version, or a tough top coat could be done ? (metal-finger-pick - proof !)

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resin8er
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Posts: 1051
From: Fair Lawn, NJ, U.S.A.
Registered: Feb 2002
posted 09-22-2004 18:10     Click Here to See the Profile for resin8er   Click Here to Email resin8er     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just get the bloody thing galvanized and be done with it!

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styleo
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Posts: 129
From: Florissant, MO
Registered: Jun 2004
posted 09-23-2004 04:07     Click Here to See the Profile for styleo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
A buddy of mine has a HVLP sprayer and an explosion proof fan setup. I think I'm going to get some of those flakes off ebay and shoot a green frosted finish on my Sterling single cone this winter. Does anyone know, would it be OK to sandblast off the existing finish, or do I need to chemically peel it off?
I need to look up the word "procrastinate" but I just keep putting it off. (Me 2004)

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cole
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Posts: 697
From: Louisville KY
Registered: Jan 2004
posted 09-23-2004 06:57     Click Here to See the Profile for cole   Click Here to Email cole     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Most folks would choose stripping because of the accessibility of a sandblaster. But, it's an excellent idea. If I were to go that route, I would find a gunsmith in your area that is set up to do that. The reason is two fold. It should be beadblasted not sandblasted. Sandblasting is too course. You shouldn't use high pressure blasting either... this isn't an I beam being prepped for industrial coatings.

I like the idea of the bead blasted surface for primer to cling too. It would provide an excellent bond. However, you'll need to build up a primer thickness that will level out smooth for the following top coats. Otherwise, a rough surface may give you a satin finish effect, which would be cool if that was what you're after. I've done this both ways using automotive polyurathane with good results. I'd get a couple of scraps of sheet metal and experiment before you committed the body to a certain procedure.

I beadblasted a coverplate (only) and stripped the body on a late 30's Duolian. The coverplate turned out satin. Over time and wear, fine line alligator cracks formed on the coverplate as a result of the primer and top coat shrinkage. The lines filled with dirt and grime with made the lines appear black. It was a pretty cool, yet unplanned effect. Here's the pic of Peaches:

http://www.mair.bizland.com/id10.html

Good luck!

keep pickin'...

Cole

]www.colestevens.net

[This message has been edited by cole (edited September 23, 2004).]

[This message has been edited by cole (edited September 23, 2004).]

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styleo
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Posts: 129
From: Florissant, MO
Registered: Jun 2004
posted 09-23-2004 10:54     Click Here to See the Profile for styleo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Cole,

Thanks for the advice. The guy who has the spray booth also has a sandblasting rig. I talked to him about it, and he said we would use pecan shells as they are less aggresive. I checked out "Peaches", what a cool peaches and cream burst. Very nice.

I need to look up the word "procrastinate" but I just keep putting it off. (Me 2004)

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cole
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Posts: 697
From: Louisville KY
Registered: Jan 2004
posted 09-23-2004 11:07     Click Here to See the Profile for cole   Click Here to Email cole     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
pecan shell works too, not as abravise and quick cutting as sand. Bead gives the finest blast effect IMO.

Cool! Blast away....

keep pickin'...

Cole
www.colestevens.net

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Greg H
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Posts: 62
From: Moscow, Idaho USA
Registered: Feb 2003
posted 09-28-2004 08:30     Click Here to See the Profile for Greg H     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Elderly has a duco refinished Triolian that was refinished by their shop manager.
It looks pretty good. I guess they can do duco finish in Michigan without running afoul of environmental laws.

http://www.elderly.com/vintage/items/50U-1490.htm

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Brian Kramer
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Posts: 843
From: Stockholm Sweden, via NYC
Registered: Oct 2003
posted 09-28-2004 09:59     Click Here to See the Profile for Brian Kramer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Jeeze! That practically brings tears to my eyes...
Really liking the idea of that off-set hand rest!
Excuse me, I need to take a bromo or something... I'm experiancing some kind of GAS attack.
(When two grand seems reasonable to a poor musician, you know your in trouble!)

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snakehips
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Posts: 1042
From: Edinburgh, Scotland, U.K.
Registered: Feb 2003
posted 09-28-2004 10:05     Click Here to See the Profile for snakehips   Click Here to Email snakehips     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi there !

Wow ! That is looking good.

Just a few tweaks needed really to make it even more authentic.
Sunburst it (so that more silver/clear colour visible in areas around coverplate and F-holes)

I wonder how durable the finish is ? About the same as an original, or tougher ?

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eskimo
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Posts: 3519
From: Midwest
Registered: Feb 2004
posted 09-28-2004 10:14     Click Here to See the Profile for eskimo   Click Here to Email eskimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I've spoken to Steve Olson on a number of occaisons and he's a really helpful guy. I didn't know he had that up his sleeve though. Very nice. That's worth every penny especially because you can actually lift it.

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snakehips
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Posts: 1042
From: Edinburgh, Scotland, U.K.
Registered: Feb 2003
posted 09-28-2004 10:54     Click Here to See the Profile for snakehips   Click Here to Email snakehips     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi again !

I wonder how easy or difficult it was to obtain that stunning result ?

Actually, this post is mainly to see if I've managed to successfully add an avatar !

Hope it has worked !

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snakehips
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Posts: 1042
From: Edinburgh, Scotland, U.K.
Registered: Feb 2003
posted 09-28-2004 10:57     Click Here to See the Profile for snakehips   Click Here to Email snakehips     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi again !

Ya beauty ! (Scottish expression - pleased about something !)

That's me with my Kay "Elmore" axe.

Sorry to hijack the post.

[This message has been edited by snakehips (edited 09-28-2004).]

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Brian Kramer
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Posts: 843
From: Stockholm Sweden, via NYC
Registered: Oct 2003
posted 09-28-2004 11:10     Click Here to See the Profile for Brian Kramer     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Snakehips! Come on by the Tron theater in Glasgow, Friday Oct. 1st, I'll be kicking off my UK tour there... Gonna be a "sick" night of good ol' foot stompin' blues!
BK

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jvesey
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Posts: 1828
From: New York
Registered: Jul 2003
posted 09-28-2004 11:42     Click Here to See the Profile for jvesey   Click Here to Email jvesey     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
"Really liking the idea of that off-set hand rest!"

Is that a new idea? Haven't seen that before. Have I been missing something?

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Michael Segui
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Posts: 451
From: Woodstock, ONT, Canada
Registered: Apr 2003
posted 09-28-2004 12:37     Click Here to See the Profile for Michael Segui   Click Here to Email Michael Segui     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I think it is offset because it is on upside down.
Michael Segui
Est. 1974
"The electric guitar is a fraud." - Mance Lipscomb

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snakehips
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Posts: 1042
From: Edinburgh, Scotland, U.K.
Registered: Feb 2003
posted 09-29-2004 05:26     Click Here to See the Profile for snakehips   Click Here to Email snakehips     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi there ! Brian Kramer !

Just checked out the Tron Theatre website for your gig.

Amazingly you are going to have in your band, rather unusually for blues, a Harp player.

Not sure if that is Glasgow sarcasm or sheer ignorance ?
Unless you do have a Harp player (multiple stringed monster sized instrument, usually played by polite nice women your mother would like !!)

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