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Author Topic:   Which Pickup for Electric Blues?
mostlyfingers
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Posts: 200
From: Uxbridge, MA, USA
Registered: Apr 2004
posted 03-18-2005 13:36     Click Here to See the Profile for mostlyfingers     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi. I'm looking for advice on pickups for electric blues, and I am hoping there are a few on the board with some electric experience, too.

I am looking at the low-cost Agile Les Paul knock-offs sold by Rondo Music. The sound I am after will be Paul Butterfied sometimes, Clarence Gatemouth Brown sometimes, and Link Wray/Dick Dale sometimes, in that order. I will be going through an Evans JES 150 amp, which was designed to amplify more than enhance, though there are reverb, depth, expand, and scruff controls.

Which pickup should I be looking for? The Agile LPs have (in ascending order by price) Ceramic, Alnico 2, P90s, or Type V Alnico Wilkinson.

These guitars can be seen at http://www.rondomusic.net/electricguitar-ss4.html. If someone has a link that explains the difference between pickup types, please pass it along.

(I was lusting after a Danelectro, but heard one played by the guy in Michelle Wilson's backup band. He smoked at lead on a Fender, but picked up the Danelectro only once in the set, to play rhythm. It was pretty "trebbly." I was going to visit Subway guitars to check their versions of Danos out. Considering the sound I want to make, should I be looking at Danos, too?)

With thanks.

[This message has been edited by mostlyfingers (edited 03-18-2005).]

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crossrdblue
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From: Denver, CO
Registered: Feb 2001
posted 03-18-2005 16:34     Click Here to See the Profile for crossrdblue   Click Here to Email crossrdblue     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yes, old Dano's, sold by Sears under the name "Silvertone", with the single lipstick pickup (black body, white pick guard) or double lipstick pickup (red body, white pickguard). No better sound for blues in my opinion - can always pick them up on eBay, like this

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2384&item=7305962960&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=33036&item=7307860774&rd=1

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4713&item=7308270453&rd=1

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JBoyShyne
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From: Passaic, NJ USA
Registered: Dec 2004
posted 03-18-2005 17:25     Click Here to See the Profile for JBoyShyne   Click Here to Email JBoyShyne     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hey Fingers

There's lots of choices. To me electric blues means Muddy. For Muddy it was a Telecaster. I checked ebay and there are some good deals on tele pickups. They are a bit noisy though. I also have to add Johnny Winter to the Electric Blues genre. Now, Johnny, he used many axes. Here's a link to some of Johnny's axes http://www.yee.ch/~jwinter/winter_guitars.html Looks to me like he used quite a few Gibson PAF humbuckers in his day.

J Boy

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Deacon
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Registered: Sep 2004
posted 03-19-2005 05:23     Click Here to See the Profile for Deacon   Click Here to Email Deacon     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Try and get a Silvertone 1457, they have tone and volume stacked. They are a bit rarer and better than the average Dano/Sears/silvertone. Dont bother with the amp cases.

I was in London a couple of weeks ago and the price of Silvertones has shot up. Over hear they're really cheap still. If you look around you'll find a few pros stil playing them.

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frankenstrat2
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From: LonGisland
Registered: Mar 2005
posted 03-19-2005 11:38     Click Here to See the Profile for frankenstrat2   Click Here to Email frankenstrat2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Hi Mostly Fingers!
I watched this thread for a day or two to see the responses. Keep in mind this is an Acoustic Guitar Forum.
I'm a schizo player, meaning I divide my attention somewhat equally between electric and acoustic, mostly interested in slide blues, some reso.
Your question interested me but you seem to be all over the map in terms of the sounds you are referring to.
Paul Butterfield's main guitarists were Mike Bloomfield (Les Paul w. PAF Humbuckers) and Elvin Bishop (ES-335 w. PAF Humbuckers). I believe Gatemouth Brown used to be a Telecaster guy? (single coils) and
Link Wray played Danos and other single coil guitars, perhaps Gretches as well. Dick Dale is MR. Surf guitar, Fender Strat all the way.
UNLESS you are going to get into a used Line6 Variax modeling guitar (not a bad choice, by the way, especially for the money) you will never approximate all of those sounds in one instrument.
To a certain degree, I think you are on the right track, however. You can help out a mediocre (or lets say modestly priced) electric guitar by upgrading the pick-ups with better sounding after-market choices.
But I am not familiar with the Agile brand of guitars, or the quality of the pickups they use. However, you can be guaranteed that in this price-point of entry level instrument, the pickups will not be very high quality regardless of the model you select.
I think you can learn a great deal about pickups, the sounds they produce, and their construction with some rudimentary Google research on these pickup brands and their websites:
Seymour Duncan
Dimarzio
Kinman
Rio Grande
There are many others.
Vintage Danelectro guitars are a classic blues rock sound, and lipstick pickups belong in every players arsenal, but I'm not sure that should be the only tool in the shed if you are looking for a wide tonal palette.
Remember that most of the tone comes from your hands regardless of whatever instrument you choose.
Good luck with your new guitar!
Barry

[This message has been edited by frankenstrat2 (edited 03-19-2005).]

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mostlyfingers
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From: Uxbridge, MA, USA
Registered: Apr 2004
posted 03-19-2005 13:12     Click Here to See the Profile for mostlyfingers     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks, guys, for the responses, and for not giving me the business for asking an electric question on the acoustic board. I thought I would be OK since bighollowthang (and others) helped set me straight a couple of months ago on which Link Wray CD to get.

Frankenstrat, indeed, the Paul Butterfield sound I like is Mike Bloomfield. From what I've read, early on he used the Les Paul, then grew to like his Telecaster. (I have East West and the Al Kooper/Mike Bloomfield Lost Concert Tapes, so it is the LP I'm hearing.) But, you know, my mission is not to sound like Mike Bloomfield, but to figure out which low-cost Agile LP knock-off to get. At least one difference in the line is the type of pickup—the line ranges from about $250 to $500 or so. I guess I wasn't clear enough—I don't think I want to put new pickups in a new instrument—I want to try to figure out whether it is worth it to spend twice as much to get Type V Alnico Wilkinson (whatever they are) instead of Ceramic (whatever that is). If I get one of these guitars, I may look at new pickups down the line, but I will have a lot of playing to do before it becomes a real need.

I would prefer a new instrument, but I really had a lot of fun this afternoon, Deacon and Crossrdblue, looking at Danos on the Web. Subway in Berkeley CA makes new Dano knock-offs, if you can imagine such a thing ($500). Unless I learn differently when I get to the store, I think the Dano sound may be too "thin" for what I want to do, though I'm amazed at what Link Wray squeezed out of his. But I'll try both the new and the old Danos when I get to Subway… (Two of the Dano sellers on Ebay said they tuned them open and used them for slide. For me, that's a warning sign that the action may be way high and the intonation may be way off. Not terminal problems, but sometimes a setup doesn't fix these things. To me, a $300 vintage Dano with un-fixable intonation problems is a very expensive instrument.)

The instrument doesn't make the player. I've got the blues collection from Hendrix, and he opens with Hear My Train A Comin' acoustic (12 string?), and closes the CD with the electric version. Same song, same Hendrix, different sound. But if no one told you it was Hendrix, you'd probably figure it out by the end of the first few notes, in either case.

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eskimo
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posted 03-19-2005 13:33     Click Here to See the Profile for eskimo   Click Here to Email eskimo     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
My favorite all-around pickups ? P-90's by a wide margin. They really respond to whatever guitar they're on/in. Meaning that if they're in a jazz box it sounds like a jazz box. If they're in a LP they sound like rock and roll.

Actually the P-90 knockoffs that Guild put in a lot of guitars in the 50's and 60's are my absolute favorite. Total single coil cutting power and fat as a ham sandwich. They were white but I can't find a picture of them on the 'net right now.

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frankenstrat2
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From: LonGisland
Registered: Mar 2005
posted 03-19-2005 14:15     Click Here to See the Profile for frankenstrat2   Click Here to Email frankenstrat2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just to revisit one little portion of my comment:
The Line6 Variax modeling guitar might really be worth looking into. When it was introduced it was $1000. Since that time they introduced several different models, and the original model ( the Variax 500) has occassionally been offered brand new with warrantee for $500.
Here's a used one on Ebay right now at $355. with 8 bids and 2 days left.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2384&item=7308252335&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW
There's a ton of Variax info on Line6.com including sound clips of all the different models. It has all the guitar sounds you are looking for.
There's a great Line6 User Forum too if you want to pursue it further and ask questions from owners.
The Variax will give you all the sounds you are looking for plus a whole lot more, a very playable guitar made in Korea with quality components and and adjustable neck. Buying it used, you should always be able to sell it for about what you paid for it.
Honestly, its a far better investment than putting the same or more money into the Agile LP copy from Rondo music.
If you absolutely positively need that Les Paul shape, I'd advise at least going with an Epiphone- the less expensive Gibson alternative rather than a no-name guitar such as Agile. It will serve you far better in the long run.

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mostlyfingers
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From: Uxbridge, MA, USA
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posted 03-19-2005 14:34     Click Here to See the Profile for mostlyfingers     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the reminder about the Variax, Barry. An amazing assortment of sounds out of that instrument (Sitar, too?). The samples on the site all sounded a little "industrial" to me, sinc they don't have the deadned strings and missed notes that I add to my music, but I'll hold off judgement 'til I hold one in my hands and plug it in in the store. Plus, the store is nearby.

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frankenstrat2
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From: LonGisland
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posted 03-19-2005 15:30     Click Here to See the Profile for frankenstrat2   Click Here to Email frankenstrat2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Actually, the Coral electric sitar is probably my favorite model in the V500. Killer.
I also really like the Les Paul model, the ES-335 is very good too. The strat sounds are pretty realistic, as are the Gretch. There is even a vintage Dano! The acoustic models are only passable unless you are using a good acoustic guitar amplifier like a SWR California Blond or the XLR outputs to a front of house mixing board and seperate EQ. I did discover that if you use an Aphex guitar exciter pedal on the acoustic guitar models they really do come to life. Even the National resonator and Dobro models are pretty useful, and don't ever feedback, even at crushingly loud volumes. Try that with a real tricone!
(I know- heresy!)
Many of the things I'm throwing out here are probably far beyond your needs or budget- Aphex pedals, SWR amps, etc. But a gently used Variax well under $500 offers a lot of bang for the $$.
By the way- I also own a Les Paul, Tele, Strats, Martins, 335, more than a dozen classic vintage acoustic and electric guitars. But I have a Variax too. I just dont have the room or the budget for the other 30 classic guitar sounds that it covers.
Its not perfect, but its a very cool tool, particularly if you pick one up at a reasonably low price.
b.

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Steinar Gregertsen
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From: Norway
Registered: Apr 2003
posted 03-19-2005 15:47     Click Here to See the Profile for Steinar Gregertsen     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
quote:
Originally posted by mostlyfingers:
The samples on the site all sounded a little "industrial" to me, sinc they don't have the deadned strings and missed notes that I add to my music, but I'll hold off judgement 'til I hold one in my hands and plug it in in the store. Plus, the store is nearby.

Jeff Miller has some very good Variax demos on his website (plus he's a killer player), check them out here; http://www.guitaristjeffmiller.com/audio.htm

-- 
"As long as we have each other, we'll never run out of problems"
www.gregertsen.com

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frankenstrat2
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From: LonGisland
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posted 03-19-2005 18:33     Click Here to See the Profile for frankenstrat2   Click Here to Email frankenstrat2     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Oh- Jeff is a GREAT player! Quite a good luthier too.

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bottleneck
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From: phila ,pa ,usa
Registered: Feb 2001
posted 03-21-2005 11:36     Click Here to See the Profile for bottleneck   Click Here to Email bottleneck     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
i'd go for the P-90's.my main electric,which i play exactly the same as acoustic,is a tele with a p-90 in the neck.i've found it to be a very versatile combination.

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mostlyfingers
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From: Uxbridge, MA, USA
Registered: Apr 2004
posted 03-21-2005 12:48     Click Here to See the Profile for mostlyfingers     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thanks for the link, Steinar. I have to say, listening to Jeff Miller, I show my fondness for the hollow bodies. My favorite clip is the Variblues, which you get by clicking Variax Sample 2 (ES-335, ES-175). (It might be the clip with the least distortion or fuzz, too.) The tempo on Sample 9 (ES 175 and LP) is a little too syncopated (funky?) for my tastes, but the tone is right on.

I have a much better idea now of what to look for and listen to when I go to the store.

I imagine most of you have had this dilemma. I have three guitars already, and that's plenty. (Yeah, I know...only a start.) But I'm watching the Clapton/Crossroads DVD I got for Christmas, and I see the likes of Buddy Guy, close-up, moving the high E string half way across the fretboard, and then some. I need that, and with an Agile I can pretend to be a shredder for a couple of hundred. But if I like to buy new (which I do), and I begin to try to make the most out of my spending instead of wasting my money on a crap guitar, all of a sudden the couple of hundred becomes $800. At that point, it's easy to talk myself out of getting a fourth guitar. What people do, and what I have done, is to hold off buying until enough resources show up.

So I'll begin lurking around guitar shops again, after nearly two years of abstinence… I'll plan on a lot of time with the Variax. It'll be a quicker trip to play with the Danos. The Agile? I still want to try one out, so I have to figure a way to get to Union NJ. Meantime, I can check out the real thing, and the Epiphone, too.

Thanks again, guys.

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MarkM
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From: Kingsport, TN USA
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posted 03-22-2005 09:38     Click Here to See the Profile for MarkM   Click Here to Email MarkM     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
If you are interested in electric blues the amp is one of the most important link in the sound chain. Just about any decent electric guitar will give you a blues tone as long as you play with the proper technique and phrasing. Aren't those Evans amps used mainly for clean tones such as pedal steels? If you are looking for a slightly overdriven tone then a better choice of amp is equally (or more) important than the brand of pickup.

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mostlyfingers
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From: Uxbridge, MA, USA
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posted 03-22-2005 10:01     Click Here to See the Profile for mostlyfingers     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Right, Mark. Evans amplifies--clean in, clean out. I am lucky to have three guitars and I am on the path to a fourth. But I won't get a new amp. I am a child of the '60s (pre-metal), and I don't think I would know what to do with overdrive.

(My amp is like the little old lady's used car—not even used on Sundays. The Evans came with my archtop, and I practice without plugging in most of the time. Forgive me, but when I perform, it's in church or at open mics, and in both circumstances, the path of least resistance is usually the PA. But I'm going to haul the amp to church in two weeks to play an uptempo gospel tune…)

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pto
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From: San Francisco, CA
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posted 03-22-2005 15:38     Click Here to See the Profile for pto   Click Here to Email pto     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I second Mark’s comment. I think you might be disappointed whatever pickup you get if you stick to the Evans amp. I don’t think the intention is to get an amp (or effects pedal) to get heavy metal overdrive. As a child of the sixties most of what you were listening to at that time had some overdrive or distortion (except Joan Baez). It is more you need an amp that when pushed a little will start to breakup and deliver that slightly gritty, full of harmonics, sound that sends shivers down your spine. Something like an old Fender champ can sound pretty good when pushed. Ideally the balance between the output of the guitar and the input of the amp should let you play pretty cleanly, but when you really dig in, or turn the guitar volume up a little, you get that growl that make dogs howl and grown men weep.

On a practical note, if you go guitar shopping it would be wise play the guitar through the same style of amp you will actually be using or you might find the guitar sound quite different when you get it home.

Peter

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