I'm new here, so just a quick introduction! Born in Sweden, but lived in Los Angeles since 88', 36 year old guitar player, with mostly my background in jazz.

Here's my question. Would love to get my hands on a "Selmer style" gyposy guitar, but can not afford to haver a luthier put together a guitar for thousands of dollars. So here's the question....Do any brand make "cheap" gypsy style guitars?

Any information would be greatly appreciated.

I would personally recommend shopping around for a used Dell'Arte, as the prices are good, and they have good resale value. They're commonly on Ebay....

You also might look into the Gallato brand that is sold at www.gypsyjazz.net You should also check out the work of David Hodson at www.hodsonjazzguitars.com

I'd also recommend that you check out the forum of the Django Swing Page at www.hotclub.co.uk for reviews of some of these guitars. I believe that there are a few new U.S. luthiers entering this market.

Thanks for the welcome! This looks like a great forum. I am indeed on mandolincafe....

If I were in the market for an inexpensive 14 fret oval hole Selmer style guitar then I think I would also look at the new John Jorgensen Gitane D-300 http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/items/DG300.htm

If you live in LA then I would give Alain Cola a ring. He lives in San Diego and you can find his phone number at this website: www.gypsyjazz.net I ordered a form fitting repro vintage Selmer style case for my Gitane from him as well as some other goodies. He sells both the Pigalle and the Gallatos. I'm sure that you can find a local dealer who carries the Saga Gitanes with which to compare.

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Originally posted by Vincent:
The current Gitane models from Saga Music are, in my opininon, the best value at this time for a great gypsy style guitar. They are made in China in the Saga-owned factory of execellent quality wood, material and craftsmanship. I currently have the the DG250M (all maple, $600 actual) and now the DG300 (the John Jorgenson model, $1100 actual). They are both a tremendous value, and even a better one at these price points. They are well made and I think very comparable, build-quality wise, to any other luthier made ones usually at the $2K price point. And they sound great, too. Come-on... the DG300 w/ Brazilian b/s at $1100...?! Its almost rediculous NOT to buy one of these! I truly think the Gitanes, if they ever stop production, will be instant collectors item instruments because of their build-quality in addition to bein excellent players. The DG250M and DG300 are already collectors items, in my opinion, because of their unique attributes, i.e. all maple, Brazilan b/s, etc. as to also being excellent players. Hey, really... - they're good enough for John Jorgenson, and his endorsment should be convincing enough for any player! Get a Gitane one while you can..

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Elderly is offering the Saga Gitane DG300 John Jorgenson model for $995.00 with free shipping. http://www.elderly.com/new_instruments/items/DG300.htm

It should be pointed out that only the exterior is Brazilian rosewood as the back and sides are made of laminates as were the originals. The tops are solid spruce, of course. By the way, the original Selmer maple models with flat headstocks were made of solid maple back and sides where as the DG250M is made of laminates. I remember reading that Jorgenson also wanted the unusual step of having the insides of the guitar finished just like the originals.

Is this the case with yours? Also, could you post a comparison of your DG300 with your DG250M? Is the DG300 neck bigger than the DG250M neck? I was a little turned off by the electric guitar like thin necks of the DG250 which is why I bought the big necked D500 Maccaferri style. Are the tailpieces on the DG300 any improved from Saga's previous offerings? Lastly, was the DG300 shipped with a more proper set-up of higher action to accomodate the use of the rest stroke technique and lighter Argentine-like strings?

I eventually found one at a small southern California music shop that I was very familiar with when I used to live in the area. This shop always had a good reputation as they had a couple of well-respected luthiers that worked there. They did repairs/maintenance work but also built their own fine instruments. I also had some work performed there on a couple of my instruments in the past and the work was always first rate. The shop always had high quality inventory, too. Their website had excellent photos posted of the instrument and upon inquiring, they informed me that they had already restrung it with a set of Dell Arte gypsy-style strings, had it setup by one of their luthiers, and would ship it in a nice TKL Prestige case, for $1100 plus shipping. This just further told me that this shop and staff is really interested in presenting their inventory with a certain amount of integrity and not just routinely moving it along with the least amount of work from the factory. I really liked the fact that it was restrung and professionally setup. All things considered as mentioned, I thought this to be a fair price and decided this was the one.

As noted by Francois Charle in his book, The Story of Selmer Maccaferri Guitars, the originals were always made with solid spruce tops and back/sides of veneered laminate/ply. Some were 2-ply: mahogany/east-Indian rosewood, but most were 3-ply: mahogany/poplar/east-Indian rosewood (interior to exterior layers), with a small number being mahogany-poplar-Brazilian rosewood. The exception to this was the original all-maple models, which were of solid maple back/sides.
The laminate back/sides were integral to the tone of these guitars and gypsy style and the Saga Gitane’s are truly accurate reproductions of the originals in this aspect as they all have 3-ply back/sides: mahogany/poplar/east-Indian rosewood and/or maple, with the DG300 being mahogany/poplar/Brazilian rosewood. I do not think I have ever seen a listed original with the Brazilian back/sides, more less a modern built one. I do remember seeing Neil Anderson of the group Pearl Django with his Selmer style by Shelly Park, which had the back/sides and neck of Brazilian rosewood.

Noted American artist, Paul Shelasky, is mentioned w/ a photo in this book, and also owns one of the original all-maple models. He was also one of the first to receive one of the DG250M models when they were available, and he reported that the Gitane DG250M is overwhelmingly superior to the original, w/ all things considered, i.e. tone, volume, playability, etc. Along with all of the replicated detail of the original and the build-quality, I think part of it has to do with the laminate/ply construction of the back/sides on the DG250M, as opposed to the solid maple back/sides of the original. If this is true, then why do so many modern builders of the gypsy-style guitar use solid wood construction for their back/sides?

Because they were the only brand I had used to date, I restrung the DG300 with a set of Argentine’s (011-046), which is the same set I have on the DG250M. The Del Arte set was okay, but the new Argentine set made it really made a difference, if not just for being a new set of strings.

In comparing the DG250M and the DG300, I would first say that they are very close, if not equal, in overall volume and projection, with a nice blend of overtones. They both have that authentic gypsy-manouche sound. The DG250M has a brighter tone and I would describe its frequency response shape as being more of a flat line, being quite even sounding, if not to say quite balanced across the tonal range. The DG300 has more bass response and I would describe its frequency response shape as being more of a broad scooped shape – more in the bass and in the highs, and with a little more richness in the overtones. Being that they also had these two models in their shop, the vendor described the DG300 as being more musical sounding, and I would agree with this.

Although I have played one before, I went out and played a DG500 again at a local shop this past weekend where I knew there was one, and just to have a fresh comparison with the others in regards to the necks. The DG500 is a just another great instrument – also loud, punchy, great bass response, and that nice wide neck and beefier profile. And I have always liked the 12th-fret format.

I can understand you choosing the DG500 for the neck dimensions and I wholeheartedly agree with you in reference to the DG250 neck profile. So, yes – the DG250 necks are definitely a very low and thin profile in comparison and I, too, really do not care for it. I have always preferred a thicker (girth) neck profile on my guitars. But all of the other great things of the instrument I thought made up for it.

Although the DG300’s neck shape is still that of a flat shaped profile it is definitely more in terms of thickness. I would describe it as a fat, somewhat squared D-shape. The thicker ebony fretboard also adds to the overall neck profile. This was one of the things I was really looking forward to and now can say first-hand that I am quite happy with (!) I personally would still prefer more in the thickness, but it is a noticeable difference from the DG250M neck, and I would say is more of an extension of the DG500 neck profile but with more.

The interior of the DG300 is also finished per John Jorgenson, as the originals were. Again, as stated from the Francois Charle book, the interiors were finished with a single coat of varnish, and this is exactly what it is on the DG300.

The tuning machines are also very good. They are open-geared three-on plate and the nice engravings and ivoroid buttons remind of some high-end tuners, i.e. Schaller, Waverly’s, etc. If anything, they are really nice copies and work well. The tailpieces seem to be the same as the other Gitane models.

It seems that I've been chasing you around over two different threads. After you seemingly avoided my original inquiry on this thread I posted it again in response to your posting the same thing on another thread: http://www.guitarseminars.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/009324.html

To which you replied:

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Originally posted by Vincent:

Scott - I am working on that reply for that other thread. Will post that soon. I am having too much fun playing these guitars, etc. And yes, I also have that JJ instructional DVD. Don't those guitars really come thru the mics on the audio like Mack-trucks? The DG250M sounds just as loud and punchy as the vintage ones, if not more so.

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I agree that playing them is fun. Definitely more fun than trying to sell or promote them, I'm sure.

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Originally posted by Vincent:
After doing some research and direct inquiries to Saga marketing I decided that I also had to have a DG300, although I already had the DG250M. Upon shopping around I also found a few other DG300 models available online - all around the same nice price range of $930-$995. However, all of these were direct from the factory to the retailers untouched: still with a set of phosphor bronze strings, only the factory “shop-adjusted” setup, and without a hardshell case included.

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Elderly ships them at $995.00 with free shipping. They've got a great return policy as well. Of course, almost all retailers are happy to sell you additional strings.

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Originally posted by Vincent:
I eventually found one at a small southern California music shop that I was very familiar with when I used to live in the area. This shop always had a good reputation as they had a couple of well-respected luthiers that worked there. They did repairs/maintenance work but also built their own fine instruments. I also had some work performed there on a couple of my instruments in the past and the work was always first rate. The shop always had high quality inventory, too. Their website had excellent photos posted of the instrument and upon inquiring, they informed me that they had already restrung it with a set of Dell Arte gypsy-style strings, had it setup by one of their luthiers, and would ship it in a nice TKL Prestige case, for $1100 plus shipping. This just further told me that this shop and staff is really interested in presenting their inventory with a certain amount of integrity and not just routinely moving it along with the least amount of work from the factory. I really liked the fact that it was restrung and professionally setup. All things considered as mentioned, I thought this to be a fair price and decided this was the one.

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What kind of set-up was performed besides putting on new strings that you didn't like? Also, these arch top guitars have weird dimensions and just don't fit properly in most standard cases. Since they are so lightly built I just wouldn't trust it in anything other than a form fitting case. I don't like the idea of one bouncing around on the inside of a case designed for a Dreadnaught flattop. Just my opinion, of course. As I mentioned previously www.gypsyjazz.net offers reasonably priced proper cases for these guitars in that price range.

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Originally posted by Vincent:
As noted by Francois Charle in his book, The Story of Selmer Maccaferri Guitars...

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Glad to see that you were able to obtain (borrow?) a copy of the book to make your reply.

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Originally posted by Vincent:
Along with all of the replicated detail of the original and the build-quality, I think part of it has to do with the laminate/ply construction of the back/sides on the DG250M, as opposed to the solid maple back/sides of the original. If this is true, then why do so many modern builders of the gypsy-style guitar use solid wood construction for their back/sides?

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Personally, I don't think the laminate/ply construction of the back and sides is particularly necessary for these guitars. I believe that the bracing, the "tensioned" arch top, set-up, and technique have a lot more to do with it than what kind of material comprises the back and sides.

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Originally posted by Vincent:
Because they were the only brand I had used to date, I restrung the DG300 with a set of Argentine’s (011-046), which is the same set I have on the DG250M. The Del Arte set was okay, but the new Argentine set made it really made a difference, if not just for being a new set of strings.

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You appear to be going against conventional wisdom with your choice of string guages. The longer scale of the oval hole is typically strung with lighter guage strings starting with 010. It has been suggested that the increased tension of elevens might "bind the top" of the oval hole guitars and thus limit the tonal response of the guitar's solid spruce arched top.

By the way, I did a little more internet seaching of my own. I found the thread below that contains some interesting comparisions by Larry Camp, who not only seems to know what he's talking about but who also owns several Selmacs of different makers. Since he's relatively local I may try to make it to one of the gigs listed on his website. http://www.djangobooks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=285

I love my Saga Gitane D500 and think that its a great guitar for the money for Gypsy Swing but as I stated originally in this thread, "its no Michael Dunn." I'm not particularly attached to the Gitane name brand but just wanted to share my personal experience with the community of members of the IGS Guitar Forum, of which I've been a long time and frequent poster.

Let's keep it real, y'all.

We happened to catch a swing jazz outfit at a (very freaking small) coffeehouse in Madison, Wisconsin, Saturday night, callled "Caravan Gypsy Swing Ensemble" (http://www.gypsyswing.net/). Very fun night. 2 guitars, bass and clarinet. (I would have preferred the sound of the violin, but the clarinetist did a very fine job. )

Interesting differences between the two guitar sounds, as one guy played a blonde Dell'Arte (I forget what kind of wood that makes it... spruce or maple?), which was much brighter souding than the Gitane played by the other, which was a tad "darker" and/or 'smoother' sounding (and color too...that sort of orangey-brown that I think is standard).

I want to say that both guitars were 14-fretters, too, but I'm not positive.

What was really interesting to me was that they mic'ed both guitars back near the tailpiece, kind of generally pointed towards the bridge. I asked the one player about that, and he said putting it there helped preserve the sound of that type of guitar, that when they put them higher up it tended to just make them sound like regular acoustic guitars.

They only had one monitor, and it was a small place, so I don't know how big a problem feedback would be at concert (or even medium to large size club) volume would be.

I personally think Schertlers sound fantastic, and can of course be used on multiple guitars, without modification. If I didn't already have Bigtones in 3 guitars I would be using one. Schertlers reportedly sound best when coupled with their own amps; Bigtones are often coupled with an AER, which is what I have.

I'd like to add to the discussion that its my understanding that the new Stimers are really meant to recreate the sound of the old ones that Django and others used later. The sound produced is very different than what you are used to hearing acoustically from a Selmac. Many describe it as sounding very much like an archtop electric. Of course, they didn't have dedicated acoustic guitar amplifiers back then and these pickups were coupled with the latest electric guitar amps at the time. So if you're looking to recreate your acoustic sound with say a Marshall acoustic amp, like TC describes, then you'd be much better off with one of the other set-ups mentioned.

I believe that the Bigtone is a piezo and has the usual associated quirks. You should probably try one out with your acoustic amp first to see if it would serve your needs. Bigtones and AER's have been a popular combination over the last few years but the Schertler, which is actually a feedback resistant minature condensor microphone that attaches to the guitar, has been gaining favor lately.

Me? I'm happy with my AKG C1000S but honestly I've not really used my Gitane D500 much for gigs. "The Hat (yes, hat) Club of Charlotte County" kind of fell apart in the aftermath of Hurricane Charlie and I generally perform as a solo acoustic singer songwriter dood anyway, but I'd really like to get back to more ensemble playing in this style. Lately, I've been working up the melodies on harp-in-rack for self accompaniment. I've got several classic swing tunes nailed on diatonic but the chromaticism found in the Django/Grappelli catalog negates a lot of diatonic harp use. "Manoir des mes Reves" can be played on a diatonic minus one note. I'm working on "Nuages" and "Tears" on my new hands free chromatic and would love to add "Douce Ambiance" but may need to really woodshed to learn how to better transpose melodies to make easier use of a key of C chromatic (my diatonic experience with the first three positions will likely come in handy for this). The traditional accordian sounds heard in Gypsy Swing are really inspiring me lately. OMG, you won't believe your ears when you hear Enrico Granefei play fingerstyle jazz and bossa nova on his hands free chromatic!

I'm the lowly rhythm player in that band, based here in that hotbed of jazz, Salt Lake City.
You can here some of our sound samples here: www.redrockhotclub.com

1. The Gitane D500 is well liked but Aria has an identical model, the MM10 for $199. Anyone have any comparisons between these two? I have developed reasonable guitar repair skills so could adjust action, shim bridges, replace nuts etc if the Aria requires massage.

2. This is ‘just trying it out’ kind of project so do I need one of these at all? I have a range of other guitars (Estralita, style O, regular OM steel string, flamenco, parlor and these are all good quality instruments) so would the sound of the Gitane/Aria be significantly different from what I have?

3. Scott, you suggest that with different strings the GitaneD500 is also good for fingerstyle. But is this ‘passable’ for fingerstyle or ‘good’ for fingerstyle.

I have played a Gitane (couldn’t resist) at a time I wasactually shopping for a Flamenca and obviously they were different so I have some notion of the feel and sound. However, I find that it’s only after I get a guitar home and play it enough to be comfortable that the differences or similarities really begin to unfold. So:

4. If I go to the store and play one of these and they sound no different to my other guitars will I expect to be able to coax a different palette once I learn its special characteristics?

5.Conversely, if it sounds really different is it just because I am in a strange environment (the store) and really need to convince myself to by it.

5. Does one need to go upscale (e.g. Micahel Dunn) to really hear a difference from “non gypsy” guitars.

Thanks for any and all help,

Peter

Take a look at this site...

http://www.american-guitar-center.com

Carlos Juan is the owner of the American Guitar Center. He builds the best pickups in the world; there is absolutely no question. Read the long list of stars using his system. It's difficult to pick out who is the most impressive! Needless to say the fact that the very critical Eric Clapton uses them in his stage acoustics and is very unhappy with anything else says a lot.

Anyway I have his CP-1 system in my Martin 000-28 and his CP-1A system in my Martin D-35. They are incredible. My other guitars sound insipid compared to them. The strength and purity of tone combined with the total abscence of coloration or feedback is superb. I don't know anything about the CP-1M. The coaxial transducer models are what I'm talking about.

Also, if anyone is interested, Carlos builds fabuouls amps... and... guitars. He has built several gypsy guitars and last time I was there he still had one for sale.

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Originally posted by pto:
All this gypsy guitar talk has given me GAS. So, questions:

1. The Gitane D500 is well liked but Aria has an identical model, the MM10 for $199. Anyone have any comparisons between these two? I have developed reasonable guitar repair skills so could adjust action, shim bridges, replace nuts etc if the Aria requires massage.

Thanks for any and all help,

Peter

[This message has been edited by pto (edited 02-01-2006).]

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Hi Pete, this may be of some help to you- its a recording i made as a hobby player with my Gitane D500, the bassist was using a Tacoma Thunderchief acoustic bass guitar.

http://us.share.geocities.com/andrew_kerensky/django.wma

"Does one need to go upscale (e.g. Micahel Dunn) to really hear a difference from “non gypsy” guitars."

Hi Pete,

I can't speak to questions about the Aria, but I do have a Saga D-500. It sounds quite different from my Martins, my Ovation, and other flat-tops I've played. It is louder for lead-playing, and has more treble response. At the same time, it has more bass and more balance than the oval-hole Selmer-types that I've tried. Because of it's relatively wide neck, light-guage strings, and acoustic power, it is a pleasant guitar for finger-picking. It's a lightly-built, slightly arched-top guitar with tail-piece, and is significantly different from a flat-top. Maccaferri was a classical guitarist, and I think that he came up with this basic design originally with classical guitar-playing in mind.

I like the sound of the D-500 better than any of the oval-holes I've played--including most of the high-price names. I also have heard the Caravan Gypsy Swing Band in Madison which has one guitarist playing a D-500 and the other one playing a high-price oval-hole, and I preferred the sound of the Saga--my friend liked the "thinner" oval-hole tone.

I read in one of these threads that Saga is coming out with a 14-fret D-hole guitar. If so, I'll be GAS-ing pretty badly for it.

Interesting sound clip TenorClef, (gave me a different perspective on the tone) and the review, Tik. I’m still going to pretend to be rational about this so this weekend I’ll try to get some playing time on one at the store.

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Originally posted by pto:
All this gypsy guitar talk has given me GAS. So, questions:

1. The Gitane D500 is well liked but Aria has an identical model, the MM10 for $199. Anyone have any comparisons between these two? I have developed reasonable guitar repair skills so could adjust action, shim bridges, replace nuts etc if the Aria requires massage.

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http://www.hotclub.co.uk and http://www.djangobooks.com/forum/ currently has a few threads addressing this same question.

quote:

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Originally posted by pto:
2. This is ‘just trying it out’ kind of project so do I need one of these at all? I have a range of other guitars (Estralita, style O, regular OM steel string, flamenco, parlor and these are all good quality instruments) so would the sound of the Gitane/Aria be significantly different from what I have?

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I originally learned to swing on a Tricone. And at my solo gigs, which I often only bring two guitars and a ukulele, I use my old Duolian for most of the swing tunes. But the Gitane strung with Argentine style strings is a really unique sound.

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Originally posted by pto:
3. Scott, you suggest that with different strings the GitaneD500 is also good for fingerstyle. But is this ‘passable’ for fingerstyle or ‘good’ for fingerstyle.

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As I stated earlier in this thread, the Gitanes are, I think, shipped with light guage phosphor bronze strings. Chances are that it will be strung this way at the store so try one out and decide for yourself. They have a wide fingerboard, wide spacing at the bridge, and are ladder braced.

quote:

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Originally posted by pto:
I have played a Gitane (couldn’t resist) at a time I wasactually shopping for a Flamenca and obviously they were different so I have some notion of the feel and sound. However, I find that it’s only after I get a guitar home and play it enough to be comfortable that the differences or similarities really begin to unfold. So:

4. If I go to the store and play one of these and they sound no different to my other guitars will I expect to be able to coax a different palette once I learn its special characteristics?

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Just remember that these guitars sound very different depending on whether they are strung with phosphor bronze strings or with the relatively thin guage Argentine style strings. The technique employed for Gypsy Swing is very different as well since it involves flat picking with insanely fat flatpicks (often very close to the bridge) on very thin strings. Its hard to think of anything more different than fingerpicking or flamenco. Having said that you might be inspired by some of the newer "Latin" rhythms that the Gypsies have been incorporating into their Gypsy Swing flatpicking.

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Originally posted by pto:
5.Conversely, if it sounds really different is it just because I am in a strange environment (the store) and really need to convince myself to by it.

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From your description of the guitars that you own it looks like you have some experience shopping for guitars.

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Originally posted by pto:
5. Does one need to go upscale (e.g. Micahel Dunn) to really hear a difference from “non gypsy” guitars.

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I've played some pretty upscale gypsy guitars that really weren't all that much different from my Gitane. I've played some that really opened my eyes as to what a good gypsy guitar can be. Having said that, it my opinion, that a Michael Dunn is worth every penny.

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Originally posted by phdouglas:
I posted this as a new...............

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"Welcome" too!

Jubi