Who did I put down?

Strikes me that the only person who has been put down is me. Not that I mind. This is not the first time I've had this discussion so I'm pretty aware of the reaction it causes.

What I've done is postulate a very narrow definition of the word artist. In today's world, it has become, like I said, like the word genius. Everyone's a genius! and if you aren't a genius, well what are you...

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Originally posted by Bill McCloskey:
"I'm pretty sure if I go talk to a homeless child in a little village in Africa that his or her world wasn't changed by Miles Davis"

Really? Are you so sure of that? Isaach de Bankolé, the african film star is currently staring in Otomo, a true story about the working class african emigrees coming to Europe in the 1980's and the racisism they faced. He also directed a documentary called "Traveling Miles" about Cassandra Wilson's tour singing Miles Davis in Australia and New Zealand. How do we know that his interest in Miles did not infuse his performance in Otomo, or that he wasn't a homeless child himself in Africa.

Oh, I disagree with you. I was not being trite when I said Miles and art change the world. Art changes everyone, including the homeless in Africa.

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Well I know that I have a friend working in Africa right now at a day care. Every day she goes to work the children are waiting for her to open the day care. They come in for the day and my friend makes them clothes and teaches them, feeds and plays with them. Sadly at the end of the day the children (as young as 4 and 5) go fend for themselves in the streets until the next morning when it all starts again. She's changing the world (a part of it anyway)...Miles just blew air (albeit fairly well

I understand you are passionate about believing in these people you deem worthy of a capital A and that's great more power to you but to me they were just people like you and me and for the most part have had as much effect on humanity as you and I. It's hard to win an argument when you made up the word lol (Artist versus artist - I thought the first one was found at the beginning of a sentence).

I would never be so bold as to speak for everybody on the planet - I'm just guessing there are pockets (guessing even into the millions if not billions) that have not been effected by Miles Davis or some of the other musicians you have mentioned directly or even indirectly.

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This I have learned: nothing makes a person madder than to tell them they aren't an artist.

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Originally posted by NotRevGDavis:
Thought I might save y'all some time.

From [b]wikipedia
[/B]

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Thanks, NotRev.

Everything is art then, and the cosmos is the grand artist, from the elemental forces (ie; matter) and interacting forces of creation, that which moves the cosmos anjd is the cosmos . Take a snapshot of everything in your field of vision right now. In mine, everything is art. Perception of 'art' is only limited by the senses, or by conditioning. If you could be in outer space right now looking at earth you could say that the whole planet is a work of art in motion, right down to the coffee cup on your desk.

Art and Artist are words that seem to transcend definition, so there is something special about these words.

I am not a linguist so I can't describe it in that perspective. Maybe God's name is 'Art' :-)

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Originally posted by Bill McCloskey:
What I've done is postulate a very narrow definition of the word artist.

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I was going to make this point but it looks like you beat me to it.

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Originally posted by Bill McCloskey:
I think why this arguement infuriates people so much ( and believe me of all things and ideas I've had, this is the one that drives people apoplectic) is that it goes to the heart of the way they perceive themselves, which is a very scary thing.

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I'll buy that. I tend to agree with this although I feel no real need to openly challenge the way people perceive themselves. Instead, I tend to bond with people who are open to having their self perceptions challenged.

A buddy of mine who makes his living making and selling glass art likes to say, "Sometimes I make art and sometimes I just make stuff."

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Originally posted by Bill McCloskey:
I agree with you about the intellectualization of art, and I'm not talking about that. I hate that as well. I'm talking about a viseral experience.

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Originally posted by sam:
to valerie's comment, my favorite line comes from the zen guitar site:
"Clapton is god. So are you."

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Every artist must define what that means for themselves. It's kinda hard to call yourself an artist if you haven't really defined the word for yourself, but you also don't need to be stuck to the elitist/defeatist attitudes of others. If you are a young person who feels drawn to one art or another, I advise you to read as much as you can about that art and other arts, what those you admire say about their art and how they define themselves. Then, as you begin to study your art, work on defining what this means to you, personally. Without this self defining journey you will find it hard to develop your own voice as an artist, and will likely be doomed to the frustration that drives these critics of others. With a strong personal self definition you stand a chance of actually moving people and creating good art.

Well,actually not quite true. Last time i had this discussion was about 10 years ago, so it's not something I bring up often. And I certainly never go up to someone and tell them they aren't an artist. In fact I rarely discuss art with people at all anymore because like politics and reliqion, it is a highly charged discussion for many people.

It is certainly something I feel passionately about. But I think in today's culture it is nearly impossible to have meaningful discussion. For instance in this discussion I have been accused of being "full of myself", for tramping on people's fragile egos, of being envious, of not knowing what I'm talking about, and I'm sure many other things that were edited out. And why? Because I stated an opinion, one that I think is true and for which I sited examples that I think illustrate the point, but an opinion nevertheless.

It is interesting to me that rather than debate the point, people choose to attack the person making the point instead. As if the idea of having a strong point of view that goes against popular belief is in itself a crime.

It is also interesting how people internalize this discussion and apply things to it that were never stated.

So, for the record, I'll restate my opinion. Here's what I belive:

1. Art can change the world.
2. That the greatest gift that mankind has is its ability to create.
3. That occasionally, and rarely, there appear people in this world that create something that fundementally changes and elevates our view of the world and ourselves: a spiritual evolution if you will. The people creating this spirtual evolution most often don't know how they did it themselves. They often speak of being a conduit for something else
4. As a result of the change these people create, we call them Artists with a capital A.
5. Creativity is a gift given to all people. All people create.
6. I reserve the word Artist with a capital A to differentiate and to celebrate those rare people and rare occurances. These people are a gift to the world and they are special.
7. Being exposed to the work of these rare people can change you in a fundemental way. It is this change that is the reason these works are considered art in the first place.
8. Miles Davis is an Artist, because he fundementally changed the art form he worked in and fundementally changed people who came in contact with his art. This is not an opinion. This is a fact that is born out by the testimonies of those many people who were changed by his work. Again this is not a matter of opinion, it is a statement of the public record. Miles Davis is an Artist because other people recognize him as an Artist based on the change that occured in them after being exposed to his body of work.
9. One cannot self desigate themselves as an Artist with a capital A.
10. Just because I'm not an Artist (and I'm not) does not mean that I can't be a talented musician, craftsman, or that I cannot peruse an artist lifestyle and way of life. It has nothing to do with the kind of creativity you find yourself in.

Afer 51 years of being involved in the arts, this is what I've come to believe. You may call it an opinion, but it is as self-evident to me as the sun rising in the morning.

Funny, but last night I was speaking with a colleque and discussing this post with him. His opinion was it a hard arguement to make. He may be right. He then went on to tell me how moved he was by a recent performance of mine where I played a piece I had written for Baritone Weisenborn. It was wonderful to hear that something I had created had moved another person. And when I wrote the piece I did feel like it was something that was handed to me, that I had little to do with. This was an artistic experience and one that is powerful which is the reason that we keep doing it. It is the person whose whole lives are that experience that I call a true Artist. I've just had artistic encounters of the 3rd kind.

Anyway, it's been a fun discussion. I'm finished with it. Hopefully it was at least amusing for some of you, if no other reason than point out what a jerk I am.

Yes according to my definition, The Sugar Hill Gang would be Artists with a capital A, in that they fundementally changed the way we view music. I don't think that can be denied.

But I never said that people need to be open or even like all Art. And you are correct that it is up to the person to determine which thing create that visceral experience for them. That is fundemental to the whole discussion. Just because something is art doesn't mean I have to respond to it.

My issue with this thread was that it was started as a negative response to a young person's expression of their exuberance toward art. And it was done in a way meant to tear down that persons positive attitude. I think that is the antithesis of what this board is about, altho' it's pretty hard to tell most of the time. I think it would be far better to encourage a young artist to define their terms and come to an understanding of what art and "artist" means to them, instead of telling them they have a big ego and can never call themselves an artist.

I will continue to work to counteract the negativity and elitism which I often see purveyed on this board and I'm glad your ego is strong enough to understand that I am replying to your words, not to you as a person.

All for now.
John C.

No, this thread was started as an attempt to define a term which means a lot to me and which I find overused and over extended.

"instead of telling them they have a big ego and can never call themselves an artist."

Again an example of someone internalizing the discussion and applying things to it that were never said.

Anyway - there is such a terribly fine line between the almost fascist elitism of "Art" and the very healthy desire to reach for something higher and bigger than ourselves, defined as "Art". I have no idea where to draw that line, only thing I know is that whenever I meet somone who claims to be an "Artisté" I know for sure that I am not dealing with a real "Artist"...

No need to flame ol' Bill, he has only drawn attention to an issue that many of us obviously have strong and passionate feelings about.

Steinar

Quite contempt? Was that a freudian slip? Steiner you kill me buddy.

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Originally posted by Bill McCloskey:
"quite contempt with letting others..."

Quite contempt? Was that a freudian slip? Steiner you kill me buddy.

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Oh dear, oh dear.... I meant something like 'satisfied' but obviously goofed miserably...
(What the hell IS that word I was looking for...........?)

Steinar

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Originally posted by Bill McCloskey:
Content is the word I believe you were after

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Ah yes, of course! Well, at least I didn't write "condemned".......

Steinar

I think this topic has run it's course and I'm about to catch a plane, so ta.

All for now.
John C.

Keep up your observations, hoodadoo, they're fine by me.

And now my ride to the airport is here.